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Reinsertion
01-20-2010, 08:26 AM
Post: #11
RE: Reinsertion
Just wanted to toss my 2 cents into the mix.

Yes. Machines can lie. The entire Matrix is a giant deception. lol. It's a lie on the cosmic scale. Even the Prophecy of the One was a lie or at the very least a half-truth which would be a half-lie. Half a lie is still a lie. The One program wasn't meant to save Zion. It was meant to save the Machines. Fortunately not all machines agreed (the Oracle for example) with this genocidal plan anymore even if they had in the past. Big Grin

While I do recall rarebit either saying in-game as a character or with a post on the forums about how reinsertion wasn't possible I tended to not view the later story bits that the Wachowski Bros were not involved in as pure canon. Agent Smith ... before he went completely loopy .. seemed pretty convinced it was a simple matter when talking to Cypher in the restaurant. On the other hand.. maybe he was lying and they were all going to die, including Cypher, which would be a much simpler solution from a logistics standpoint. Bang bang! Problem solved. Next!
However; if the mind could accept the Matrix as reality again I don't see why reinsertion couldn't be possible. The problem is ... once freed could the mind accept that version of reality again? *shrug* Hell if I know. hehe
Big Grin

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01-20-2010, 08:30 AM
Post: #12
RE: Reinsertion
As I see it the purpose of the Cypherites and their whole "promised land" crusade ended when Cryptos was told there was no reinsertion, a lot of people had to rewrite their characters storylines to reflect this, so I believe that Reinsertion should be something that the Cypherites should have or find the means to do, also because it gives the Matrix story so much more plot, if you indeed can go back... something a zionite would fear, force-reinsertion? I do remember that I made Reposco part of a small Cypherite project to see if it was possible to put false memories and such into Zion operatives, and jacking him into a closed construct world. Kid's crew stormed the Cypherite hideout and rescued Reposco from that nightmarish ordeal. Lots of storyline to add if Reinsertion came back.
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01-20-2010, 08:50 AM
Post: #13
RE: Reinsertion
The only problem with bringing Reinsertion back, and I do agree with Synpze777, is how do you do it without having it painfully obvious that it's a recon?

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01-20-2010, 09:05 AM
Post: #14
RE: Reinsertion
Well, Gray was truthful. There is no way the machines can plug someone back into the simulation, as though nothing ever happened.

But, that doesn't mean the cypherites can't eventually find a way to make it possible, and then make a deal with the machines.

It would only have to be an either incredibly complex, or completely ridiculous way so that we never thought of it first. Then again, 01 would have no use to reinserting rosse pillole back into the simulation when they can simply eliminate them.

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01-20-2010, 09:30 AM
Post: #15
RE: Reinsertion
what can you do with a virus on a system:

heal the infection.

if healing is harder than elimitating...

delete the infected files

Apply that to matrix topic Wink.
Harder to reconstruct a life and its surroundings or to say: "died in an accident"?

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01-20-2010, 09:31 AM
Post: #16
RE: Reinsertion
(01-20-2010 09:05 AM)Agent Pace Wrote:  Well, Gray was truthful. There is no way the machines can plug someone back into the simulation, as though nothing ever happened.

But, that doesn't mean the cypherites can't eventually find a way to make it possible, and then make a deal with the machines.

It would only have to be an either incredibly complex, or completely ridiculous way so that we never thought of it first. Then again, 01 would have no use to reinserting rosse pillole back into the simulation when they can simply eliminate them.

Do you have any proof that Gray was being truthful?

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01-20-2010, 09:32 AM
Post: #17
RE: Reinsertion
HAL lied...Just ask Dave

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01-20-2010, 10:12 AM
Post: #18
RE: Reinsertion
(01-20-2010 09:31 AM)Metalogic Wrote:  
(01-20-2010 09:05 AM)Agent Pace Wrote:  Well, Gray was truthful. There is no way the machines can plug someone back into the simulation, as though nothing ever happened.

But, that doesn't mean the cypherites can't eventually find a way to make it possible, and then make a deal with the machines.

It would only have to be an either incredibly complex, or completely ridiculous way so that we never thought of it first. Then again, 01 would have no use to reinserting rosse pillole back into the simulation when they can simply eliminate them.

Do you have any proof that Gray was being truthful?

Good thing we have the real Pace and not someone just posting as them!

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01-20-2010, 10:31 AM
Post: #19
RE: Reinsertion
(01-20-2010 07:09 AM)Hydrazine Wrote:  It wasnt until after he did the event with cryptos, gray, and veil, that we found in Matrix Comic, book II, there was a reinsertion done. Matrix Comics were approved by the brothers and IMO that means it was possible to do a reinsertion.


Except that that wasn't a full reinsertion. Hitch still had his memories. Cypherites desire full reinsertion. This includes the following ...

1. Being put back into the pods.

2. Having your memories erased.

3. Spending the rest of your life in the Matrix.

It should be noted that an old Zion mission (somewhere in chapter 3, I believe, after Cryptos showed up in the story) had a person in a similar situation as Hitch. She had be put back into the pods (Anome described her as a "retired" Zion operative that decided to live in the Matrix as a bluepill) but her memories weren't altered.

The fact is that no Matrix story so far has shown us a full reinsertion. Thus, it's entirely possible that Gray was telling the truth.

Of course, this opens up a lot of questions. For one: why is reinsertion impossible? Unlike a butterfly's cocoon, a person doesn't "outgrow" the pods. They can still be hooked back into the Matrix. And we know the Machines can alter and erase memories. That leaves number three on my list. Perhaps the Machines can reinsert people, but they eventually go back to rejecting the System and being pulled out again. There's nothing to suggest that full reinsertion removes that old splinter in the mind that originally got the "reinsertee" out of the Matrix. So perhaps that's why the Machines view it as "impossible".

But there is also the possibility that Gray was lying. Perhaps they were worried about putting Cryptos (who was, at that time, a strange and unpredictable merger of man and Machine due to Seraph's failed extraction of the Program within him) back into the System. Or the Machines lied to the Cypherites in order to get them fired up. Or perhaps they wanted Cryptos to continue to be active because they were worried what would happen if Veil held the reins.
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01-20-2010, 11:57 AM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2010 12:14 PM by EichDee.)
Post: #20
RE: Reinsertion
(01-20-2010 09:31 AM)Metalogic Wrote:  Do you have any proof that Gray was being truthful?

There is no proof, so to speak. Originally, the idea of reinsertion came from a malfunctioning Agent program who was more worried about his own agenda than the good of the system; his purpose. He would've told Cypher anything to get his hands on the Zion Mainframe's access codes. Can you really trust every word that came out of his mouth?

Agent Gray, on the other hand, had no reason to hide that fact to Cryptos. Revealing that there was indeed a procedure - as everyone already thought - would not necessarily mean he would've agreed to reinsert him. Hence, there was no reason for him to lie about it.

You could then suggest the idea that Gray wanted Cryptos - and the cypherites - to believe there was no such thing, so it would perhaps weaken their resolve. Then again, Cryptos came to Gray asking him for reinsertion. It wasn't Agent Gray who came out and stated it for no obvious reason. He merely answered a question. If he wanted to lie to the cypherites, he could've easily done it years ago.

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